JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum 2008 American Idol (original official)

Terry I didn't do anything any of you weren't doing
And I feel you owe Piano Sam an apology
For now on though I will think people suck In my head so as to not cause a quadruple team on me again but I will not apologise
Good day

Airun read what I said about Simon Cowell and try to understand what I am saying.

He exploits handicapped folk and folk who have learning probs and folk who have mental health probs. These people are hand picked by his team of auditioners and then brought in front of him and his cohorts to be ridiculed in the name of FAMILY entertainment.
That is what sucks and why I have no time for this man. Do you agree or disagree?
The general quality and standard of his Karaoke type contestants is in my opinion very poor. It is only my opinion and of little relevance to my MAIN argumant with Cowell. I will tell him to his face if I ever meet him. I also wrote a letter to the TV station expressing my concerns but never got a reply.
Read Read Read. (if that helps the message sink in)

The show after the auditions are good, I don't really care for what happens prior, I think everybody has mental health problems,
You, me, simon cowell, the moron that made a fool out of himself on national tv, dr phil etc, but when these people think they are actually good, simon is doing them a favour, I think you should be more pissed off at the family and co workers who encourage them to try out, aren't they the root of the problem?
Yeah I think they are

I don't believe in the " I'm crazy, I'm mental" I didn't know I sucked (oh yeah I can't say that word in here)
If you kill someone and plead insanity you still knew what the hell you were doing, Jim don't blame simon for taking advantage of morons, It's not his fault they are dumbasses, is it?
It's their own fault and the fault of everyone encouraging them
Plus Its a bonus for them when they get on the television
Which was probably all they wanted anyways =)

Damn Airun

You just don't get it do you. I was trying really hard to be nice and not say anything about you personally. Maybe I failed.
I was just trying to explain my position.

I used Taylor Swift as an example. I don't think she is a great singer, definitely not deserving of the awards she is getting. But I bet every Boy under 25 is in love with her. That is my opinion and I am entitled to it.
Just as I think Clay akin is a great singer.
I don't think Big Jim is a great singer. If he was he'd be on a major label. But he is a professional singer and pretty good I might add.

Then you come right back and call me a coward for expressing my opinion.

You just can't help it can you.

I guess I can't help it, No she isn't the best singer but then shes a damn good lyricist and that makes up for her lack of depth in her voice, I've heard Jim sing , wanted dead or alive, every idol person that sang it nailed it, And Jim not so much

Bill what is the difference between insulting a person behind their back or to their face or screen or whatever
The intent is there and the intent is all that matters

Then you come right back and call me a coward for expressing my opinion.

Didn't you just make a big fuss to me when I stated my own opinion? Yeah I think you did so now the same doesn't apply to you?

Using the word suck and deliberately telling someone they suck is two different things.
And who is insulting someone behind their back?
Is my statement that I don't like Taylor Swift's singing insulting? It is my opinion.
I don't like Bob Dylan's singing either. Is that an insult?

I did not say I didn't like her lyrics, I don't even know if she wrote the songs.

If Taylor Swift is insulted by that then I guess she has the right to come here a tell me to stick it.

Bill, I cannot stress this enough, Just because I think someone sucks does not mean anything, If I hurt their feelings because of that then they shouldn't be posting their work, Now should they?
Not everyone will like you or what you do, I was directing the insulting at Jim and then you and the merry brothers stepped In as if you were personally attacked, I could go to your soundclick page and then respond and then you'll have a right to feel insulted
But I'm not really trying to be mean, you 're making the issue more than It really is, I don't care what you think Is mean, if you think saying someone sucks should be outlawed in a music forum then you need to log off and take a good look and a good hard thinkin' of what really is bad In the world

To me It looks like you're bored and having a bad day
Or you're feeling the effects of the tortured musicians syndrome who've tried their whole lives only to get no where and like to ridicule the very few who are successful like big Jim and mostly everyone else in this thread, music is all about opinion
I'm no american but Bill It looks like you're screwing your own amendment , free speech, whether you think It should be allowed or not, Enough Is enough, go out and buy some ice cream and chill
Lets get back to music

airun you are sick and if anything sucks you do. So you think it is OK for people with deformities to be laughed at and handicapped folk are morons who deserve all they get. Get a life and have a word with yourself. I have met some low life badasses in my time but you are off the scale.

ok. so A.I. sucks and what-not, airun. in the words of Don Henley......

GET OVER IT!!!

markus

Y'know, years ago, Shakespeare wrote a play about this. He called it "Much Ado About Nothing."

I have my own opinions about the worth (or lack thereof) of
American Idol, but I'm not about to try to convince anybody that I'm right. I have simply voted with my feet. I do not watch it, have not watched it, and do not plan to watch it or any of its clones. My wife watched it last year, and at one point I did get to hear (I was not watching) a finalist (Lakisha?) who had a really distinctive voice, and I listened to y'all's progress reports (I was not watching) to find out how she did. I figured she wouldn't make it, and I was right. I still hope she pursues a career in music.

And if they do another song-for-the-winner contest this year, I'll probably enter, even though I did not win last year. I got so much mileage out of being able to introduce "Rotten Candy" as "The Song That Was Rejected by American Idol" that I wouldn't mind doing it again.

Joe

Using the word suck and deliberately telling someone you suck is two different things.

You don't seem to know the difference,
There is a word....TACT....look it up

Never mind I'll save you the trouble
Tact Tact is a careful consideration of the feelings and values of another so as to create harmonious relationships with a reduced potential for conflict or offense. Tact is considered a virtue.

The fact that I don't think Taylor Swift deserves the accolades she is getting is not meant as an insult,
I am not saying "Taylor you suck".
She puts on a good performance and sings OK, just not, in my opinion, to be treated like the newest greatest singing sensation.
In a few years she will probably deserve it, Maybe.
But I don't even know why you are bringing it up. It was just an example and has nothing to do with you.

Be just a little more clear about your intentions here. I am curious just what you have in mind.

Bill I do not think airun could be clear about his intentions if he tried. I think he just takes pleasure in winding people up. Not like you and me and the rest having a bit of fun and tongue in cheek banter. I mean seriously upsetting folk. I do not think he cares who he upsets as long as he upsets someone. I hope he is a Christian as he could give us Atheists a bad name. I think he should apologise. Not to me cause I dont care what he says about me I am thick skinned. I care about what he said about the handicapped and mentally ill folk and the "morons" who deserve all they get for being "dumbasses." Only an idiot or someone deliberately trying to stir trouble could say such things.
Best thing is to ignore him... perhaps he will just go away.

Airun..don't think you read my first post correctly..i apologised to Pianosam at the outset...He aint culpable...As far as credibility goes,well i dont think i need to prove that to anyone, except myself..you stick to what you do best.and i will do likewise...and never the two shall meet.....Terry...

Jim who said anything about deformities? I was talking about singing.. If they can't sing and think they can sing , do you call that a deformity? why don't you stop twisting my words around

Jim don't blame simon for taking advantage of morons, It's not his fault they are dumbasses, is it?

How could a person read into that as me saying oh yeah I love seeing mentally handicapped people get made fun of ?

Bill you are the one who brought up Taylor Swift.. not me

Joe.. I stated my opinion as did these other people.. but then they decided they wanted an argument, its a sunday and their walmart is probably closed so I obliged

airun


"How could a person read into that as me saying oh yeah I love seeing mentally handicapped people get made fun of ?
don't blame simon for taking advantage of morons, It's not his fault they are dumbasses, is it?"


I rest my case airun. You are an idiot. Even worse you have no respect or consideration for people with handicaps. It may not be Simon's fault they are as you call them dumbasses. But it sure as hell is his fault for the way he abuses them. If I saw someone in the street behaving like that to any of the handicapped folk I know I would kick his ass.

You know I cannot imagine being like you. I could not be so blatantly hurtful and disrespectful to people. And I could not put up with all the sore faces you must get from talking to people the way you do. Or do you just say these things from the safety of your anonymity behind a computer too afraid to speak to real people like that.
"Questionable human beings" TAKE A LOOK IN THE MIRROR. NOW YOU SEE WHAT A JERK LOOKS LIKE. You know I feel kinda ashamed for stooping down to such depths as to converse with you.

Jim what are you even talking about? Again I'm having to defend myself by saying I did not say " oh yeah Jim I really enjoy seeing mentally handicapped people being manipulated by simon cowell"

don't blame simon for taking advantage of morons, It's not his fault they are dumbasses, is it?"

So you think when I call people morons or dumbasses that it is code for mentally handicapped people? Did I call them retards?

Gee whiz, somebody explain to this goof, obviously his mind is set on one thing, someone tell him calling any one person a moron doesn't imply I'm calling them mentally handicapped
If you tried to comprehend my sentence Jim you would realize It meant people who THINK they are great singers but are horrible

I see this burns you deep, I didn't intend on you to take things this personally, I didn't know you were mentally handicapped and I'm sorry if you misunderstood what I said, Now lets go on to writing some good music , shall we?

Take care

Since I started this thread simply as a bit of general discussion of pop culture (if nothing else), I feel a little responsible for the direction it's taken as well. I'm simply wondering what it might take to get this out of the gutter....

Let's see, some people like AI and others don't. Can we "all be in this together" somehow? How might that work?

Could we, for instance, just let others state their opinion without having someone else refute it? If someone says they like the Eagles, does someone else really have to say, "No, the Eagles suck, they're a bunch of wimpy-ass California dudes. Iron Maiden and Metallica are the ONLY bands making good music!". Is it possible to just let those who like something enjoy it, without trying to convince them they should NOT be enjoying it and listing out the reasons they're stupid or wrong for enjoying it? I don't really see the purpose in doing that. It only gets people defensive.

When these types of threads devolve into a string of personal attacks, you know that logic has simply gone out the window and it's no longer a constructive discussion in any way.

It's not even an entertaining thread any more. Maybe it's time to either get it back on track, or simply lock it down?

Jim,

Did I understand you to say that you think you and your friends sing better than AI winners? If they are "third rate" acts then how would you rate yourself? I have listened to Kelly Clarkson, Carrie Underwood, Clay Akin, Ruban Studdard and many other AI contestants and their mastery of the sung word is often stunning! How can you not see that? Or have you ever listened? I am not trying to be mean, but let's be honest- we are here on the boards and in the pubs and open mics honing our craft hoping that at least once we (on a good night) could sing that good. Please tell me you are not numbered with the self deluded! Tell me that not only could Nat King Cole and Frank Sinatra sing circles around you (and me) but that at least some of the AI contestants can as well.

To BE good we have to know what IS good. And that is the worrisome thing about your blanket comments. You are probably right about the greedy bastards who run the show but that is a different kettle of fish.

Hey boys,

Thought I'd jump into the fray for a sec....

I appreciate all sides of this discussion and isn't it great we have this forum to voice our opinions (personal-attacks not-withstanding)?

This rah-rah position leads me to the reason for my appearance here tonight. I've watched AI since the beginning, and have been to two concerts ( -- I have a 9 year old daughter), but the most compelling reason I tune is (and this might be more of a chick thing): I am watching the American Dream unfold before my very eyes. Whether the person is talented enough, or more or less talented than those who are out in the trenches and not competing, is moot. The fact is, Simon and his machinery "let us" be a part of a system, where we can enjoy vicariously the progress of a few individuals....and like Simon said the other night, as a rule, we AMericans are happy for others who do well. So why not enjoy this?

I think the trouble starts in these sorts of conversations because people are comparing apples to oranges. Could they be less harsh? Sure. Are there better singers out there? Most likely. Will Simon make zillions of dollars off of it? You're darn tootin'....he took the standard rags-to-riches formula and modernized it. Should people be ashamed for watching? Hell no.

Anyhoo, I'll say no more on the matter....Think of me what you will for my comments, but I have to defend American Idol....at the very least, because its songwriting contest last year is what led me here to JPF .

Lastly, if you're looking for a less headache-provoking way to channel your testosterone, come on over to Lyric Forum 3...we started a new Song Challenge....

Ciao for now,
Beth

Here's a funny one.. While I only watched last week cuz I had nothing else to do while I was waiting to do my show, and people at the bar seemed enthralled by it {as always!} I was watching more out of curiosity. I won't be watching anymore, I've got better things to do with my time.{I really don't give a rats a** about A.I one way or the other.} If ya' don't like it, there's a thing called the "off" button!{And I'll be using it!}

Now lets get a couple of things straight here. For the record I did not say that I or any of my friends were better than certain AI winners.
This has been misinterpreted and exaggerated. What I did say or meant to say was that the general standard of AI contestant is very poor. It is of a similar standard to that found in any karaoke bar or by walking along any street asking the passers by to sing. There is nothing blindingly amazing or original or exceptionally talented in wet behind the ears kids singing karaoke covers. That is all AI is. I did say that I was a professional and that even on a bad day could myself or my fellow artistes stoop to performing at the level of the average AI contestant. That I truely believe. People have different tastes and opinions and they are entitled to them.
Re certain individual AI winners whos names have been banded about as being great singers. I do not pay much attention to then as I do not buy into the hype and production line methods used to launch their generally very short careers. However I have heard these people and I genuinely believe the extent of their talent has been exaggerated and that there are many pro and semi pro singers who I rub shoulders with that are just as good if not better. This again is just my opinion and I resent people demanding examples as proof. That is just my opinion and anyone who disagrees is just expressing their opinion. I also firmly believe that so much mediocre talent has been produced in the AI manner that in general the bar has been lowered and we have become programmed to accept mediocrity as real talent. I hope that clears up that part.

Now to the most important part my real gripe against AI. Sadly this point has been almost missed or at least ignored. Exploitation is 100% what this show is about and Simon Cowell is in my opinion one of the worst culprits I have ever come across.
We all get exploited in our industry. FACT it goes with the territory. However it is no secret that a high percentage of AI contestants have persoanl problems and "issues". These issues include self confidence, mental health, physical handicaps, special needs and learning disabilities, delusions and, as airun so quaintly puts it, morons and retards. I do voluntary work with handicapped people and have had two kids with learning difficulties. Generally these type of people cannot defend themeselves and need lots of help. It is disgusting that AI should seek out and ridicule and laugh at auditions from folk who obviously have the aformentioned problems. They then put this on TV as family ENTERTAINMENT. I would like to hear what people think about this. IS IT MORALLY RIGHT SHOULD IT BE ALLOWED?

There's no one or two well known and politically tied special interest group leaders for the mentally disadvantaged, as there are for other groups, as in Al Sharpton, or Jessie Jackson, for example.

If there was a leader who could have been getting TV time on so-called news stations to denounce the staging of the ones that have mental conditions, (would need clinical testing as part as the screening process), as in IQ, and all kinds of other medical workups), that make them unsuspected targets of soon to be ridicule, then like the N word, the L word, and the Nappy word, this issue would have been dealt with in the beginning.

Now, it's like what the old traveling carnivals must have been like. "Lets go over and laugh at that freaky lady", (and similar). So goes the human development to still want to see people not like ourselves,,,or sometimes just like ourselves. (That last line Not intended for you or anyone specific).

Who speaks for the lower IQ's? Should they be given a test first?

Without knowing clinically who is actually "what", we are playing arm chair pshycologist. As it does seem obvious in some cases, in others, they may not be how we assume.

Like Bob said, for now, the thing would be to either watch or not, then let the ratings lead the way. Or be, or wait, or get some special interst leader to start the campaign for even more control over who can do what and how.

People laugh at someone falling on the ice. But, the show is a set up for the falling of those maybe not seeing the ice, but the ice is very much known by the producers. There is a difference.

Something to think about:

Just because someone is a horrendously bad singer and thinks they're really good doesn't mean they are mentally disabled. I see people who sing as bad or worse as anyone that's ever been on this show at nearly every city stop on our 10 years of JPF Roadtrip tours. We allow any level of singer to participate and I can assure you that really bad singing combined with an absolute certainty that they are great singers is more common than you'd think. Some of the biggest jerks I've ever found out there are also the worst singers. I totally recognize the bad auditions as being quite representative of the spectrum of people out there who think they are pro level talents.

Have they EVER had someone mentally disabled on the show? Possibly. But most, if not the vast majority are people with high functioning day jobs and mental capacities who just don't understand the music business. It's sort of like anyone who takes ANY other profession for granted and thinks how simple it must be to do someone else's job. But in the case of singing, people get to prove that it's not so easy after all in front of others. If we had average people trying to do the jobs of other professionals in front of us, they'd be just as incompetent and look just as ignorant.

We have people who post here who sing as bad as the bad singers on AI. They're not mentally disabled. And most are very nice people. Thankfully we don't put them up for humiliation or ridicule, and that's where AI gets in trouble. It's been clear so far this year however how nice they are being, especially to those who might be considered challenged in some way. But I can assure you that even respected Doctors can be totally clueless about musical talent and their lack of it. The worst CD we ever received was from a prominent doctor in California who had spent a fortune on graphics and packaging and the music and performance literally ranks the all time worst (and most deluded) in our entire history, which is saying a lot when we've gotten 3/4 of a million songs to date in our awards process. This guy not only was deluded about his talent, but also about his place in the "industry" and it definitely crossed over into unhealthy delusion. But he was a practicing doctor in an important speciality in the medical system in California. I've also had attornies, corporate management, university presidents, politicians and so on all have similar lapses in judgement when it came to their relative talent. And the truth is that EVERYONE has a level of delusion at some point which allows us to even try it in the first place. Very few talented folks are fantastic day 1 of their musical journey. Most of us have to learn to first be tolerable.. then competent and then, if talent allows, actually good. From there only natural talent can take us above simply good.

So don't assume the most embarrasing performers on AI have any mental defects.. at least none that we don't all share as humans.

Brian

Jim
If you are asking me to decide which of the AI contestants are mentally ill or intelligence challenged I can't do that. I have seen some contestants on the show that were obviously intelligent but clueless to their ability to sing.
Some were horrible singers, but who decides if they should get to audition or not? What is the test?
Is it your position that they should be banned from auditions? Wouldn't that be discrimination?
Let me pose this question to you. What if someone had their heart set on standing in front of Simon, Randy, and Paula. They had been dreaming of that moment for years. Then they get to the auditions and are turned down because it was decided they were mentally challenged. How do you think that person would feel?

Where do you draw the "you are smart enough/you are not smart enough" line.

Now I do admit that the ridicule of contestants is inexcusable. Some common sense could be used when deciding what to air. But I have to wonder how many where so bad that they never made it past the cutting room.

But, what about William Hung? Would he have ever made the prime time? Do you think he is unhappy that they exploited him? I wish I could get exploited like that.

I am a watcher. I like to watch talent shows. Not all of them, some are just stupid. But I like to watch American Idol. If I did not I would never have seen Malinda Doolittle sing, or Fantasia or Clay or some of the other wonderful singers I have seen on the show.
And the idea that these folks just woke up that morning and decided they wanted to be a singer is silly. Many of these singers have paid their dues for years. Malinda is a typical example. Many are in Bands and have been playing bars or local venues for years. That, IMHO, is just jealousy talking.

You have decided that none of these people can sing as good as you and your Karaoke friends. Well, that's OK. I don't think the Top downloaded Country artist can sing very well either. That is my opinion. Sometimes it is about more than just ability to sing.
But American Idol is not. It IS about singing. Otherwise Fantasia or Malinda would never have had a chance and that, IMHO, would be our loss.


EDIT
I'm gonna add something here. I have been a carpenter for 30 years. I believe I am a very good carpenter. I have done some fine finish work, cabinet making, etc. I have seen other carpenters that thought they were great ...well, they were not..they were actually awful. But if you asked them they would tell you how good they were. It's the same thing.
Jim, You even made reference to it on the workers who worked on your house I believe.

Now if I could write songs, sing, and play guitar as good as I was a Carpenter I would have something to brag about, LOL.

Brian again my generalisations have got me into trouble. Yes I see and take your point I never thought otherwise. However fact remains that while a lot are perhaps akin to the deluded doctor there are more than a few who are obviously nearer to my take and have the problems I mentioned. Bob made a good point about just turning the prog off. Well that is OK. I try to but others do not. In days when folk went to freak shows and laughed there heads off nothing was thought about it. Then somebody pointed out that this was cruel and folk got to thinking. Very soon these things became a taboo. All I am trying to do is highlight to folk my feelings and point out the same issues as folk in the freak shows used to suffer and hope they use the off switch.

Actually my grandfather was a carny when he was young (teen years, so sometime around 1910-1920))and he used to talk a little about it. In those days the 'freaks" were proud of their jobs, and most of them loved their uniqueness. It was much later that popular taste in entertainment began to shift away from it. The transition period was when burlesque was very popular. It also included very unusual acts, sometimes including some of the so called "freaks". It created opportunities for some folks who could not have gotten employment in more conventional environments.

Re Comparing myself and my fellow pals to AI winners. I said that AI winners were perhaps not as good and could not survive in my environment. I put forward the following reasons.

AI contestants have vocal coaches and choreographers they only have to perform 3 or 4 songs per show. They have hairdreseers make up artistes and wardrobe asistants. They have a week to learn the few songs they have to sing which are usually standards that most folk know anyway. They are told what to sing what to wear where to stand an when to go to the toilet. Usually being one trick ponys they only usually have to sing in one style anyway. They have sound engineers and lighting guys and a huge team pampering them. They do not have to cart heavy gear about. They do not have to present discos and Karaoke. They do not have to perform for over three hours at a time and be fresh next day to do it all over again. They have plenty of rehearsals and soundchecks.


We have to do all these things ourselves we cart heavy gear in and out perform for hours songs we have not had the chance to practice. We have to be comedians and other things which are part of our unwritten remit. We have to sing many styles and genres and cater for ever changing audiences of all ages. Compared to what AI folk struggle to go through they could not handle that pressure and have not the multi task talent.

The Freak show has NOT disappeared. Have you ever watched any of Ripley's Believe it or Not. They have stuff on there all the time that is just nuts, IMHO.
Extreme body piercing, People who do Extreme stunts just to get their 15 seconds of fame, Look at the reality shows where people eat worms and disgusting rotten things. Can you really believe these folks don't have a few screws loose?
They have people with medical anomalies that are televised for one thing, to shock you. I have seen things on Television that make American Idol look tame.

I hate babies and wimmin! Anyone wanna rassle about it??

Just kidding. I wanted to pop in with a gentle reminder about "The Gong Show". I think everyone saw the humor in that show...it was designed to be funny, and special interest groups never bothered to protest about it. I believe American Idol is keenly aware of it's "Gong Show" side...it's a big part of its appeal, especially in the earlier side of each season. Mixed among the stunningly talented are a pack of bizarro Gong Show acts...some of them are so entertaining that they are kept on because people love to watch them. Some of them even get famous despite themselves...Sanjaya anyone?

But no matter...they all got to be on TV, worldwide. I'm not sure that any of them feel exploited about that. It was probably the biggest thrill of their lives, and I'll bet they all still talk about the fact that they were televised contestants, no matter what the outcome.

No, freak shows have not gone away, but people's attitudes about them are much different than they used to be.

Jim
My friend

American Idol is a singing contest. It is about singing a variety of songs the best you can. It is not about going to a bar or the county fair and entertaining a bunch of drunks for four hours.
It is about one thing. Your vocal ability. Singing on pitch, your vocal range, your ability to convey the emotion and message of the song.
And singing many different styles. From Barry Manilow to Buddy Holly to Motown, to Aerosmith and Motley Crew.
How many folks can do that.
To sing a Mariah Carey song or a Celine Dion. And be compared to them?

To be able to learn a song, get up on stage with a live band, no vocal processors, just you and your voice and sing in front of 80 MILLION people. And know they are going to be voting on your performance.
And...you don't think that is pressure?

Bill just to answer your questions. Thousands audition and there is a pre audition done by Simons lackies. Only the handpicked cream from this pre audition are put before the panelists plus those who are "interesting" and would make good TV. If this is a proper talent show then why are some people singled out for ridicule? I WILL LET YOU DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS. Supposing folk are of sound mind and just really deluded bad singers as Brian suggests I maintain it is in bad taste to ridicule them anyway. Would we do that on this forum I hope not. Something perhaps for Brian and everyone else for that matter to think about. Does it really matter if folk have problems or not does it make any difference? It is wrong to ridicule them.
My solution is simple none of these really bad singers need be shown at all. Am I making sense or do we still want to laugh at people who may or may not have problems?

Jack
You are right about that. I think that's a good thing. People should be more sympathetic to the plight of others.
But I do wonder who benefited from the demise of the freak show. Or who was the loser with it's demise.
Sometimes I wonder if we are to good for our own good.

What about Christians and atheists, are they free from ridicule also? ...and, what about eight armed freak gods from India? .....and what about the Swiss? Huh?

Jim I don't disagree with the idea that people should NOT be ridiculed. Simon can be downright cruel. That is crossing the line.

I don't know the answer about who should be shown and who should not.
If you go to any competition there will always be people that should not be there. Not just singing competitions.

I am sure that some of the folks go away feeling very bad about the experience. But some will cherish the memory for life. I gave up a long time ago trying to figure out why some people like the things they do.

As far as Simon exploiting them..Well I think Television and the entertainment industry as a whole thrives on exploitation. It is what they do.

Look at the reality cop shows, or even the evening news. They always try to find the person that is crying the most or hurting the most.
It is exploitation at its worst.
Do you watch those shows, do you boycott the news.
Hell, they even exploit our soldiers dieing in Iraq for the ratings.
It is all about making MONEY, if people did not watch they would not do it.

What's wrong with the Swiss?
They make chocolate.....and watches.....
and yodel

Damned fence sitters!

Swiss steak sucks!

Bill I do not do much different from what you say AI contestants do maybe except for the 80 million watching. But really to most pros it does not matter the size of the audience the performance remains the same. Can't quite manage a Celine Dion impression. But can Kelly Clarkson sing like meatloaf or Joe Cocker?

Hey wait a minute
What about Swiss Family Robinson

I don't like Swiss steak either. Now if it was Venison...

Which is more damaging in the end:

Harsh Truth or False Praise?

I see a lot of delusions made worse by false praise. And that keeps people from improving and learning and actually reaching their real potential. That seems, to me, to be a worse cruelty.

Brian

Harsh truth is a winner every time as long as it is fair. I always try to give honest advice and constructive criticism rather than false praise. Most folk on this forum will agree.
There is a big difference between harsh truth and ridicule grant me that point which is my main concern. The problem with us Brits is we generally root for the underdog.
Brian I would very much like your opinion on this. When does an aspiration or dream or ambition become a delusion? Who decides? and when?

Jim I sure hope Kelly doesn't sing like Joe Cocker.
I bet Joe couldn't sing like Kelly either.

But, what if when you went to do your show you were handed a list of Celine Dion songs to do?
What would you do? Would you sing them?
And remember the audience is going to expect you to be at least as good as Celine.
That is how AI works. They are given a list of songs from a particular artist and that is what they have to do. They don't get to choose what material they sing. They must figure out which song they will be able to best perform. Then try to nail it. If they choose poorly they suffer the consequences.
If they were allowed to sing what they wanted then you could say they were One Trick Ponies but that is not how it works.

I still don't understand why anyone would refuse to watch a singing competition any more than they would refuse to watch a Boxing match or an Olympic Gymnastic competition.
It is a contest pitting one person against another.

Maybe it's only singers and songwriters that don't watch.
Because it is still the most watched show on television.

Hey Bill wanna see my set lists? I keep them under my kilt.
Yeah I agree most singers would not watch through choice.
Most decent ones would rather be out working.

The aspiration is never a delusion. The assessment of how close you are to reaching that goal is where delusion often creeps in.

I can't think of any goal that is at risk of being a delusion. Even William Hung became a music "star" of sorts, and even if you hate his singing, he was well liked, not ridiculed, for his pursuit of success in music even without a singing voice. So if it's possible for him, it IS possible for anyone.. but the difference with him was that he acknowledged that he wasn't very good, but that he was doing the very best HE could do.. and that's an important distinction that made him a likeable folk hero rather than a target for scorn and ridicule. Had he really believed he was a world class quality vocalist, he would have been delusional.

Brian

Well since you asked Bill, my personal feeling about music is that it is not a competition, it is an art-form. Once you make a competition out of it the artistry is gone and you are left with technicians. There are some very good technicians on the show and some horrible ones, but they mostly leave me cold. That is my personal taste, and I do not expect others to necessarily agree with me.